Maharaj :
Lord Krishna is the Original source of Purusas “Svayam Bhagavan Krishna Krishna Sarva ” thus the personality of the Godhead Sri Krishna is the original primeval lord, source of all other expansions all the revealed scriptures accept the Krishna as the supreme lord, “Isvara Parama Krishna Sacit ananda vigraha” Krishna was known as Govinda is the supreme controller, He has an eternal blissful spiritual body, He is Origin of all, He has no other origin, He is prime cause of all causes, “…Jana bala “ You know all the conclusions of the scriptures very well, You create these logical arguments just to agitate me,
 

Purport

A learned man who has firmly studied the scriptures cannot hesitate to accept the Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, if such a man argues about this matter certainly he must be doing so to agitate the minds of his opponents “Se Krishna avathere Prachendra Kumar” the same lord Krishna the fountain head of all incarnations is know as son of the king of braja, He has descended personally as Sri caitanya Mahaprabhu, Kaviraj Goswami is very conclusively making the statement, the Krishna the son of Nanada Maharaj is the cause of all causes, Supreme Godhead and in the past last two chapters, Kaviraj Goswami has made great efforts to prove this fromevery point of view in opposition to any arguments so, by this time we should all have the conviction and philosophical and scriptural understanding by which we can defend the opposition of Krishna Bhagavan is the Absoulte truth is the cause of all causes and source of everything,
What as we have read over the last couple of weeks are the some of the primary arguments which lead one to a lesser understanding of the Absolute Truth,
What we have been reading
What are the view of incarnations of Krishna
Uhh.
I want to present the arguments to one of our devotees tattva..you prove that Narayan is the Supreme ..you prove that Krishna is the Supreme.
The arguments for the both sides already given
 
Devote:
 

Narayan is the Supreme Personality of Godhead because all the sampradayas very clearly state that all the Acharayas, great Acharyas including the Madhavacharya says that Narayan is the Supreme Personality of Godhead
 

Maharaj: Jai Ho Om Namo Narayana
 

Devotes: Laugh
 

Govinda Pr Devotee: Krishna das Kaviraj states about these there are four acharyas they explained that Lord Narayan is the Supreme Personality of the Godhead, but Krishna Das Kaviraj is explaining from different scriptures, how Krishna is the Supreme Presonality of the Godhead, he quotes from the leela which when Bramha wanted to see who is Krishna, so he hide all the gopas and all His calfs and wanted to see what Krishna does with this, when he saw that still Krishna is playing with all the cowhered boys and all other calves then he could understand that Krishna is not an ordinary Child, when he wanted to have talk with Krishna, but when he could see that  all other cowherd boys are non other than lord Narayana Himself ………. Lord Krishna must greater than all these Narayana and also Lrod Caitanya quotes from Krshna Da Kaviraj Goswami quotes from the meeting of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu met venkata Bhatta and he was describing that he was very pleased the devotion of Venkata Bhatta but still caitanya Mahaprabhu wanted to give the highest realization of the Supreme Personality of the Godhead, when He was telling to Venkata Bhatta , He was joking with Venkata Bhatta, that your Lakshmi She is chaste wife of Lord Narayana, but still she is desiring to have association with Krishna, what is that, then venkata Bhatta was arguing that there is no difference between Krishna and Narayan, bu Lord Caitanya says why Lakshmi devi is still wanting to have association of Lord Krishna and giving the association of Lord Narayana, so in that Caitanya Mahaprabhu was proving that Krishna has some special feature which Lord Narayna doesn’t have, in that way He was showing Lord Krishna is the Supreme Personality of the Godhead, all though lord Lakshmi performs so many austerities, still she could not get the association of Lord Krishna, so in that way Lord Caitanya Proved that the Lord Krishna is the Supreme Personality of the Godhead and everything eminates from Him.
 

Devotee:
 

Lrod Shiva is considered to be aSupreme Vaishnav, he says Vishu aradhanam Param.
 

Govind Pr: When Lord Caitanya Himself is saying Lord shiva is the devotee of Lord Caitnay aMahaprabhu, so He Himself is saying that Lord Krishna is the Supreme Personality of the Godhead
 

Devotee: I don’t know who is Caitanya Maha Prabhu
 

Govind Prabhu: There is no difference as far as Bramha Samhita, Vishnu and Krishna there is no difference, but still we accept, just like a candles, Original candle is Krishna, all other candles are lit through that candle only, so in that way we accept that the Krishna is the Supreme Personality of the Godhead.
 

Maharaj:
 

Vedanta means the conclusion of all the vedic Knowledge, Veda Antha and Srimad Bhagavatam is accepted to be the commentary of the vedantha by the author of the Vedanta Srila Vyasa dev and in his conclusion of all vedic knowledge, in the first Canto he said that, he describes all other various incarnations of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and Krishna is also of all such incarnations, how on the basis of the Bhagavatam we will accept that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead .

Govind PRabhu: because as it is explained that, when lord descends in this material world, there are innumerable Universes, whenever He wants to come in this Universe, He comes through the agency of Kshirodhaka Ksyai Vishnu, as just like .I don’t know this Mharaj alredy gave the example like he come through the Kshirodaka Kshayi Vishnu, when He wants to display his unlimited leelas in this specific material world then that He comes through the agency of Kshirodhaka Kshayi Vishnu, all toher planets and all other Universes also same way He descends like he doesn’t want to , He wants to act according to the laws His own laws which He created in this material world, like all other incarnation manifest like through the Kishordhaka Kshayi Vishnu only, in the same way eventhough He is the Supreme Personality of the Godhead,  He is the source of all incarnation still to keep that laws , He descends through the Kshirodhaka Kshayi Vishnu
Maharaj:
 verse proves that Krishna is the source of all incarnations
Govind Prabhu:
Ishvara Prama Krishna Sacitananda Vigraha
Maharaj:

Govind Prabhu: Krishna athu Bhagavan Svayam
Maharaj:

Devotee:
 

He is always..after explaining all the incarnations, he is specifically reefers to all these avataras, including Narayana and Purusa avatharas and all  Amsha and kalas they are protions and plenary portions and protions of plenary portions and Krishna is the Origin of all those.
 

Maharaj:
 

Here Narayan is Supreme as Vyasa Dev said “Narayana asthu Bhagavan Svayam so Kaviraj Goswami explains that Veda vyas is the plenary incarnation of Krishna and therefore four defects of committing mistakes, illusions, cheating, and defective perception do not occur in the words of Veda Vyas so the same to all other incarnations coming from Krishna, He is original source of all other incarnations, He is saying perfectly, if Narayan is Supreme that would mean, the Veda Vyas is subjective to Illusion, he is subjective to imperfect sense perception and therefore all the Vedas would be render bogus, this one of the strong arguments.
Now santa Kumar I have studied the Vedas for the past 20years and obviously the vaisnavas, they like fix their uncontrolled senses on some object to worship Krishna, but according to Yogananda, according to Sankara Acharya, according to the real Acharyas we understand that the conclusion of the Vedas is Bhrma Stayam Jagath Nitya, this material universe is illusion, only Brahman is supreme, and Brahman temporarily takes form only for the sake of those people who are two much attached to sense perception to lead them back to the ultimate goal Bramha Joyti, but for that not we merge back in, but avatharas also merge back in the original source.
 

If you cannot defeat me you have to surrender to the impersonal Bramhan.
 

Devotee:
 

This impersonal aspect truth can be discussed in three aspects Bramhan, Parmatma and Bhagavan and when the Sankara Acharya  propogated this philosophy because it was relevant for that period, because he had that mission  when Lord Buddha came He denied all the Vedas because that time that everybody was, that means there were no qualified Bramhanas and for the sake of all this thing, all the animals were sacrificed , inroder to stop that Lord Buddha came in order to make and then in order to make and after that Lrod , and after that Lord Shiva appeared as Sankara Acharya just to re-establish the authority of the veda to create this thing,,after some time Lrod Caitanya Maha Prabhu has to come to descend in this world, so inorder to create proper atmosphere to create proper atmosphere for the teachings of Lord Caitnaya just like the Sankara Achrya performed this gives us the information regarding particular aspect of the Supreme Truth and actually its a it will rotue the direct, if we read the Vedanta Suthra, and the vaisnava Acharyas and understand that the conclusion of all the Vedas is Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and someone it goes for the indirect interpretation of Sankara Achrya then he is bewildered by the word jugglery
Devotee: That means the Lord doesn’t have a material body, not material eyes not material hands, He has spiritual transcendental body, it is quoted in Brmha Samhita that He can eat with His hands they are transcendental senses He has got, so He can eat with His eyes, He can see with His hands and then Govindam Adi purusam, so from Bramhasamhita itself we can understand, even in Bhagavad-Gita, Krishna says that I means that He is a person, in which He has got person body of His own
 

Devamrta Prabhu:
 

Actually the Personality of the Godhead is believe in those who are indulging in the cult of Bhakti which is meant for sentimentalist and those who are on the emotional platform for those who are really seeking knowledge the Upanishads and the Vedanta give us the real light and they explain that the absolute truth, in order to be absolute must be changeless, formless and without qualities, it has to be eternal anything that can change  with a variety of form it cannot be the eternal, it cannot be the absolute truth, so the absolute truth must necessarily be without variety, must be without quality, it must be changeless and therefore we can understand that, it is only the impersonal, undifferentiated Bramhan, that is the absolute truth and this truth is repeatedly stressed In all the Upanishads also, the other scriptures may talk about the personality of GOD, but that is understanding the Bramhan takes on various forms in illusion and when we asked about this illusion we come to the understanding of Bramhan is Supreme beyond everything else.
 

Radhagopinath Prabhu Bhagavatam explains that there three aspects od understanding the truth and it is Bramhan, Pramatma and Bhagavan and these are in the hierarchy that order that Bhagavan is the Supreme and it is also said in the Bhagavad-Gita where clearly Krishna establishes 20:38 I am the basis of Bramhan and it is considered as the effulgence of the Supreme Personality of the Godhead.
 

Govind Prabhu: when Upanishads and all Vedas are written by Veda vyas Himself still He was not happy He was thinking there is something mistakes must be there, so when He was thinking like that then His spiritual Master Naradamuni came and he told you are not described absolute truth perfectly, all your descriptions are imperfect because you have not described Lords past times, so when He described through the Srimad Bhagavatam then He was satisfied, so in that way He explains the Lord complete past times of Personality of Godhead’s different kinds of leelas, He is describing in Srimad Bhagavatam, when He wrote all these things He was satisfied so in that we can understand Upanishads they may giving us some kind of Knowledge about Supreme Personality of Godhead, but they are not perfectly leading us to the Personality of Godhead, but Srimad Bhagavatam which is the, in the scripture which is the spotless purana, it give us complete knowledge about the Supreme Personality of the Godhead.
 

Devamrita PRabhu: Actually the verse that you quoted from Srimad Bhagavatam doesnot establish the superiority of one over the other it just states the three aspects of the absolute truth, it doesn’t say that the Bhagavan is the origin of all, it just says three aspects to understand three aspects, so we can understand from the background of the Upanishads that the Bramhana is actually is the basis and source of everything, in fact so called Bhagavan and so called Avatars actually also come from Bramhan, they all originate in Bramhan and after when they finish there leelas they merge back to Bramhan, Bramhan is the only reality  and as far as Upanishads are concerned what you said about Vedavyas you should understand that Vedavyas kept in mind in Kaliyuga people will have less intelligence therefore they will not be in a position to understand the Upanishads, therefore to bring them upto certain level He was written scriptures Srimad Bhagavatam, so that at least because they know that Upanishads are meant for those who are highly intellectual it cannot be understand by the common man so therefore why should a common man deprived of the absolute truth, at least they can elevated to a certain level for them therefore there a re scriptures like Srimad Bhagavatam and others which atleast bring people to some conception theh they finally come to the understanding that the absolute truth is the impersonal Bramhan.
 

Devote:
 

But what about Bhagavad-Gita , when Vedavyas written all the scriptures and when He was not satisfied because He is not written about the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krishna and after upto 9th Canto he written how Supreme Personality of Godhead, but in 10th canto because Krishna starts Krishna’s leela and this past time this impersonalist cannot understand that’s why He written upto 9th canto, but when everything written and not satisfied, He is just like a sad man so Narada muni instructed because you have not written Krishna’s past times therefore you are not satisfied then all the people who can satisfies, so He written, then He after instructed, then He written Krishna’s past times and another thing is Shiva he is one of the tweleve Mahajan, so he is also telling parvathi that the Krishna is the Supreme Personality of the Godhead and He is the only one creator and He is the only one absolute truth and because parvathi is asking question to shiva I have seen you are always in meditation so whom you meditate, then he explain I was in meditation to Lord Krishna’s lotus feet

where as the scriptures say that the person who takes the process of Bhakti he is most intelligent as described by the Bhagavad-Gita and those who are Jananis actually are considered as less intelligent persons and this what the scriptures say. What is that verse
 

devotee: Bahunam Janma
 

devotee: this verse say that after many many births who takes up this process amd another thing is Bramhan, everything comes from Bramhan, from where as or practical experience is concerned, we are not seeing that everything is coming from nothing, always something comes from something and so far we are not having any experience they are in that something comes from nothing and …so we descripbe that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and from whom everything emanates.
 

Gopinath Prabhu:  decsribes people in Kaliyuga as sumandha matha yo and I don’t think any of us are born in Dvapariyug and Bhagavad-Gita  there it is said  whoever considers as Krishna having a body which is like any of us he is a muda  Sankaracharya himself proclaim all this as Bhajagovindam mudamate 30:00
Devamrta Prabhu: you see in the impersonal school we do not deny, Govinda is defiantly there, but we do not say that Govinda is Supreme, He is beyond Bramhan, just like you are quoting from different scriptures, I can also quote from different scriptures, if you take agama sashtras or if you take up devi Bhagavat or If you take up, there is so many evidence Shive is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is also eveidence that Shakti is the Supreme Personality of Godhead , so why should I believe your scripture and not my scripture, if you want to quote scriptural evidence there is enough, to show that actually Shakti is the Supreme, when the two aspects of the Absoulte truth are Shiva and Shakti, just like you are saying that talking on Purusa and Prakrithi, we are talking about Shiva and Shakti, so ultimately the whole idea of personality is put forward, just for those who cannot comprehend this impersonality, because as you rightly said we are less intelligent, therefore how can we comprehend this impersonality, impersonalism, therefore we have to have some personification of some this impersonal truth and therefore we have deity Krishna and we have the leelas and the past times to attract our mind, once you transcend the state you will come to the platform of understanding the real truth and transcend come to understand the absolute truth as it is, so as it is said we have different sloks and different folks, you can quote from your scriputre.
 
          I will quote from my end  but the question is and further you have quoted Bhagavad-Gita and you Krishna is I it refers to the personality of Krishna, but there are so many slokas in the Bhagavad-Gita in which Krishna is saying that He quotes about attaining the Supreme, in fact 8th chapter title is attaining the Supreme, whys should he say attaining the Supreme, why should He not say attaining me, He says that some time, he says that some times attaining the Supreme or by doing this we can reach the Supreme why He is talking about Himself, when somebody has to reach Him He can say reach Me why does He some time say reach Supreme, so we can understand that Krishna is giving us a message He is trying to elevate us to come to the platform of understanding that Supreme which is beyond all personality
 

Devotee: 
Maharaj: Puranas and Bhagavatam are meant for Sudhras and Matajis, it is meant for them, ofcourse the process to gradually elevate them to the principle of reality to give them some material conception that they can hold on to, that material conception is dealing Krishna, hearing Krishna and there is other Gods, bu they are less intelligent when we come to the standard of higher authorities then we can approach the Supreme
 

Devotee: actually it is described that according to one scripts one will accept some kind of spiritual for understanding the spiritual truth, so it is stated that different kind of scriptures, different kinds of people in different modes and the puranas for example are divided into three categories, one for the people in the mode of ignorance, one for mode of people in the passion, one in the mode of Goodness, so all the other sastras are talking about the supremacy of the Demigods are those for who are ignorance and passion, but we understand from the padma purana, that the among the puranas and the mode of goodness Srimad Bhavgavatam or the Bhagavat puran is the highest, so it is meant for those who are already in the mode of goodness and it will take one to Sudhha Sattva stage or even beyond the mode of goodness, where as the other puranas, they have the place they can elvate only in the modes of passion and ignorance, so if you want to understand the real position of the absolute truth, we may struggle and fight about the Supremacy of the one scripture or the other, but we ultimately we understand that the Srimad Bhagavad-Gita is the topmost scripture and if we follow that we can have complete understanding of the absolute truth to elevates us beyond the stage of mode goodness.
 

Maharaj: Sankaracharya sometimes
 

Devotee: It means that Narayana is beyond material modes of nature, He is beyond the material manifestation, that he is transcendental
Maharaj: and Sankara Acahrya also says “ Bramha Satyam Jagan nityam”
 

Devamrta Prabhu: Actually what Sanckara achrya meant, the advita say that this means, that whole material world and everything within it is maya is false and the only truth is Bramhan, where as actually what this means is that Brahman is truth, we should understand what is Bramhan and what is Mitya we should understand, Bramhan means the Absoulte truth and Nitya we understand this false not in the sense of it does not exist but false in the sense it is temporary, therefore this material manifestation is temporary, but it exists, so therefore from vaishnva understanding we can see, although the material world is always changing in His form and content, but is essentially it is eternal, matter is also the energy of the absolute truth, so we distinguish between the energy and the energetic
 

Maharaj :
 

The same person saying Narayana is transcendental and is the Supreme truth
 

Devamrata Prabhu: Narayana and Bramhan are different, although all the incarnations come from Bramhan just like entire manifestation is also maya, but still comes from bramhan, nothing is beyond a bramhan, nothing is outside of the bramhan, therefore even this material manifestation comes from bramhan.
 

MaharaJ:
 

Devamrita prabhu: because it is illusory, it is actually, it is the play of bramhan and the bramhan is the narayana or the same.
 

Maharaj: Narayana and Bramhan are the same we agree, but how could something impersonal play.
 

Devamritha Prabhu: that’s is what it means to be supreme, where it is absolute truth is supreme and sense it is not limited by personality to put personality on to bramhan is to limit, therefore the bramhan it is supreme and therefore can accept personality, it can also be…
 

Maharaj :
 

Devamrita Prabhu:
 

Maharaj: He must be a person to play
 

Maharaj: Narayana and Bramhan are the same, now which is more inclusive, according to the shastra Krishna says
Those who understand transcendental nature but arjuna and sankara acharya accepted who the devotees are, sankara achraya
 

Devamritha Prabhu: because bramha itself takes the form of Krishna to uplift us, so by worshiping Krishna we can be elevated to the higher platform, because Krishna is no-different He is a Supreme Bramhan, He says Krishna is a Bramhan, infact Krishna is just an ..
Maharaj: 40:59 where in the scripture does it say understanding Krishna is the higher level of Bramhan
 

Devamrita PRabhu: actually for this we have to resort to understanding under parampara
 

Maharaj: one verse  Krishna says I am the source of the Bramhan  Krishna says there is no truth superior to me  the Bramha samhita clearly describes the impersonal Bramhan is the effulgence, the light eminating from the body of Sri Krishna “Isvara Parama Krishna Sacid ananda vigraha” that His means eternal full of knowledge and full of bliss, if His body is full of knowledge and full of bliss obviously it is not a temporary manifestation of bramhan, so  I want to see where it says Krishna’s body is illusion  and how I wanted to prove according to sastra , we are just  by worshiping that Bramhaman is the basis, Krishna is the basis of the bramhan, there is no truth superior to Krishna “ Bhanuam Janmanam  “ after many births and deaths one surrenders to vasudev 42:46 where does it say after many births and deaths  you said that different folks with different sloks
 

Devamrita Prabhu: Actually the fact of the matter is that there are so many scriptures we do not agree except they are bonafides , Bramhasamhita for example, we do not accept this Bramha Samhita
 

Maharaj: you said Sankara Acharya said Bhagavad-Gita
 

Devamrita Prabhu: Yes Bhagavad-Gita we accept, but we must see that very often,as you rightly said, the Bhagavad-Gita is meant for who are less intelligent, it is just a beginning of knowledge and therefore the knowledge is not given in the fullest manifestation.
 

Maharaj: According to your higher scriptures where is the evidence
 

Devamritha Prabhu: evidence is that Upanishads, which talk about
Maharaj:
 

Devamritha Prabhu: I can bring you Upanishads I have collection of
 

Maharaj: Vyasadev is saying take away this glaring effulgence so that I can see your beautiful form, face.
 

Devamritha PRabhu: you see Bramhan can present so many different forms and so many different shapes but beyond ultimate
 

Maharaj: why is he telling to remove His effulgence to see His shinning face
 

Devamritha Prabhu: that is to understand Bramhan in truth, to understand who is lord bramhan who really is.
 

Maharaj: we are giving a quote from the Upanishads, we want to see the smiling face of the lord, we don’t want to see the glaring form, clearly indicates that face is the source of effulgence, you quote from upanishads something different
 

Devamritha Prabhu: May be I have to do some research
 

Maharaj: and  if narayan is transcendental  we are taking about Narayan that means He is transcendental …Upto
 

Devamritha Prabhu: actually we are limited by conception of site and seeing
 

Maharaj:  GOD has no eyes but He sees everything everywhere
 

Devamritha Prabhu: that means GOD doesn’t need eyes to see
 

Maharaj: that He has no material eyes, He seeing everything everywhere that means He has eyes
 

Devamritha Prabhu: you limited by the conception that to see you need eyes, that is material conception, because we have a particular body with eyes in certain places, therefore we think that He has see to see with the eyes, but factually Bramhan being supreme, every aspect of His can perform the action of every other perform or functions, therefore Bramhan can see, He can hear, He can smell, He can do everything,
 

Maharaj: you just defeated your own argument, because the idea of Bramhan is no variegated ness and your are speaking about infinite variegated ness
Devamrita Prabhu: we are talking about functional variegated ness that means
 

Maharaj : functional variegated ness is variegated ness
 

Devamrtha Prabhu:No
 

Maharaj:  you are talking about differentiation you are saying every one, he conceive any part anything  differentiation
 

Devamrita Prabhu: what do you say is Bramhan is omniscient
 

Maharaj: you are making duality and non duality
 

Devamrita Prabhu: Actually illusory energy is there and therefore th Bramhan is present in illusory energy
 

Maharaj: right now according to Sankra acharya there is no illusory energy all energies are illusion, there no illusory energy, again you are creating a duality, in your concept of non-duality, if there is a illusory that’s the admission of the supremacy of vaishnava philosophy.
 

Devotees: Laughs
 

Demarita Prabhu: so I will accept Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
 

Maharaj: In the Mayavadhi philosophy the whole non-dualistic philosophy its all word jugglery  we accept that bramhan and Bhagavan both are transcendental  which is more inclusive , you were explaining before, that Bhagavatm doesn’t say which is more inclusive this means  so sachitha ananda vigraha, we understand that Sachitha ananda is the Supreme Bramhan simply explains the Sat the eternal, the all pervading Cit is obviously describing the paramatma who is the knower of every ones heart, Ananda is obviously explaining Bagahavan who is engaging in the transcendental leela and Krishna says His body is transcendental, that means Krishna has eyes that see every where and everything is that higher than having no eyes, Krishna ears He ears everything, everywhere is that higher than having no ears, Krishna Has a tongue, He tastes everything every where, is that higher than everything having no tongue, Krishna has a personality, Personality is Supreme all pervading , is that higher or having no personality is higher, one is negative and one is positive, which is positive negative or positive.
You are supposed to argue
 

Devamritha Prabhu: I already accepted Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
 

Maharaj: Then you should chant and become a mad man so….have you all accept Krishna is the supreme personality of Godhead, Abijit  you will not find arjuna, its there interpretation, they interpreted that way and that’s why Caitanya Mahaprabhu explained to sarubhuma bhatta acharya, you are describing the Vedanta suthra, but you are simply giving interpretation, because Vedanta sutra is like the sun, its clear the meaning is clear, but your interpretations are putting cloud on it, so mayavadh philosophy is simply taking, because of the Upanishads, because of the Vedanta sutra, which describes the, non-materialist aspect of the supreme lord, describes the impersonal aspect of the supreme lord and they interpreted to me that the personality of the Godhead is the illusion, all it is clearly said in the Upanishad  the lord has variegated energies, so there is much evidence to prove, but absolutely there is no evidence to prove this mayavadh philosophy, that Krishna’s body is maya that Bramhan is the superme over the Supereme Personality of the Godhead , so you can research if you like, you will not find, you only find in the commentaries you will not find in the original
 

Maharaj: we should no that for sure
 

Devote:  mayavadh worship anything
 

Maharaj: Yes they worship Krishna,
 

Devote:
 

Maharaj: then Krishna will not accept both of us, they will worship various forms of God, but only for the purpose of fixing or regulating your senses, by fixing on one particular object, but ultimately you have to go beyond that object, that object is just a temporary tool that God given u, we concentrate our minds to regulate our minds, purify our minds, ultimately we don’t need that tool anymore, we go beyond the tool some times there were very famous famous spiritual personalities of the modern age, he was the devotee of the Goddess Kali, he is a bhakta of Kali, he met a Guru and told him he just met he said Kali was appearing before him, next Kali gives darshan, you concentrate your complete attention between her eyes and don’t take it off until by the power of your concentration she disintegrates, you destroy her form at that you merge into the same essence of Kali, this is the understanding of mayavadh worshipping of a deity, they worship and say they don’t needed any more and then they discard it, you become the deity with the same essence, but the bhaktas we accept  sanathana means eternal we are eternally part of Krishna, no one doesn’t say we are Krishna.
 

Devote:
 

Maharaj: Under the rescue of a bonafide vaisnava we cannot understand what is real bhakti, Bhakti means accepting the position of eternal servant of the lord, this is not reslly Bhakti, what kind of devotion is 55:28 if I wanted to take your position it is not devotion:
 

Devote:
 

Maharaj: We are worshiping God so that we can become God that is not taking position, in other ways you don’t want to continue serving God, you want to
 
become that God, therefore this is unpalatable for us to Bhakti this idea.
 

Devotee: what is the fate
 

Maharaj: this upanishdas says if we mislead others, one goes to the darkest region of the hell, but on the other hand  impersonal realization of Godhead and if they leading the people toward a life of better piety and religiosity , the unfortunate thing is that they are getting wrong understanding of utterly of the divine past times of the lord and therefore unless such people are blessed by the cause less mercy of Krishna 56:55 they cannot enter into the realm of loving service, but they can make advancement perhaps up to the impersonal level
 

Devotee:
 

Maharaj: what did he say?
 

Devotee:
 

Maharaj: you see it is described that the natural obedience to lord is checked  the Supreme source of everything is naturally respected by everyone upto
What does this mean you are asking
 

Devotee:
 

Maharaj: another words it is the nature of the soul of respecting surrender to Krishna its very nature constitutional nature of the soul, that impersonal philosophy checks that natural tendency  needing explanations 
 

Prabhupada said there was one famous Guru he was teaching meditation, in India if we go the  see many cockroaches going down to the stool and coming back up meditation is the mystic power of a cockroach what is the great about that
What is your argument ?
Are the cockroaches are self realized liberated souls they can meditate.
Devotee: next birth
 

Maharaj: laugh perhaps
 

Devotee:
 

Maharaj:The most dangerous thing that disturbs is proper service attitude towards the Supreme Personality of the Godhead and in the name of the service, in the name of the service it is conditional it is not unmotivated therefore it cannot be considered as a truly service attitude at all
 

Devote:
 

Maharaj: they render all sorts of seva that the conception is averse to the true service attitude Jiva bhuta sanathana that we are eternally servants of the lord, we are serving not for the sake of the service, we are serving for the sake of becoming, we are not serving for the sake of pleasing, we are serving for the sake of becoming, ultimately their idea of Krishna, Ram, Narayan according to the vaisnavas offensive, because ultimately they say that the form, name and all of these things are duals, ultimately they are illusions , therefore Caitnay Maha Prabhu, in the Caitanya Caritamrita, Madhaya lila, He explains that when vaisnava hears a mayavadh philosophy it breaks its heart, a true vaishnava it breaks His heart cannot tolerate, hearing the beautiful beloved form of the lord  all the conclusions of the scriptures very well, we create these logical arguments just to agitate me, that same lord Krishna source of all incarnations is the son of the King of the vraja and He has descended personally as Lord Sri Caitanya Maha Prabhu that such words from the lips of a sincere devotee cannot be false all possibilities of bhakti ,  He is the Primeval lord , I offer my obeisance’s unto the feet of all who hear or read this  kindly hear with attention and conclusion of all these statements  and treats them in all humility hearwith rapt attention is conclusive arguments regarding the absolute truth, one should not fail to hear such arguments, because only by such knowledge can one perfectly know Krishna 
 

A sincere student should not neglect the discussion of such conclusions considering them controversial for such discussions strengthen the mind thus once mind becomes attached to Krishna caitanya mahima by such conclusive studies I know the glories of lord Sri Caitanya only by knowing this voice can one becomes strong and fixed and attachement in Him

Prabhuphad says in one his purports  simply shedding tears lead onto the transcendental plane he has not had a factual change of heart such a practice is useless there is no transcendental realizations false devotees lacking the conclusion of transcendental knowledge think that artificially shedding tears will deliver them similarly other false devotees studying the books of previous acharyas is unadvisable like studying dry impure philosophies, Srila Jva Goswami following the previous acharyas inculcated the conclusions of the scriptures and  false devotees who have little knowledge, such devotees fail to achieve devotion for want of zeal and accepting the favorable directions for devotional service eve by self realized devotees such false devotees are like impersonalist also consider the devotional service is no better than ordinary furtive actions, these kind of discussions are very much recommended by Srila Krishna Raj Kaviraj goswami to get firm conviction and strength in the mind.